#024 Interview with Boudoir Photographer Pamela Nicole

The Journey of a Boudoir Photographer: Pamela's Story of Resilience and Creativity

In this podcast episode, Pamela, an experienced boudoir photographer, shares her 15-plus-year journey in the niche of boudoir photography. She discusses the evolution of her career, from shooting family photos to discovering her passion for boudoir. 

Pamela highlights the challenges she faced, including market saturation, advertising roadblocks with Google and Instagram, and the impact of COVID-19. She also elaborates on the importance of personal projects, the significance of in-person sales, and her future aspirations, including writing and expanding her artistic endeavors. 

Throughout the conversation, Pamela emphasizes the importance of resilience, creativity, and stepping out of one's comfort zone to achieve success.

00:00 Introduction and Guest Welcome
00:26 Pamela's Journey into Boudoir Photography
02:30 Challenges and Realizations in the Photography Business
03:27 Impact of COVID-19 on Business
05:20 Advertising Struggles and Rebranding Efforts
10:11 Community and Industry Insights
22:50 Artistic Ventures and Personal Growth
30:05 Overcoming Comfort Zones
31:22 Exploring New Artistic Ventures
35:03 The Impact of Personal Projects on Business
41:00 The Power of In-Person Sales
45:11 Future Aspirations and Creative Challenges
53:44 Mindset Shifts and Personal Growth
57:52 Closing Thoughts and Contact Information

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Transcript

Welcome to today's podcast. Thank you so much, Pamela Nicole, for being here. Welcome, welcome, welcome. And I just want to, well, introduce yourself, please. I'm Pamela and I am a boudoir photographer. I live in Arizona. I've been shooting boudoir for almost 15 plus years now. So. It's been a journey and, um, my company is Femme Art Boudoir and also Rebel Babe.

It's kind of my sister brand that I'm using for advertising purposes. So now give me a little backstory on the 15 years. How did this niche find you or how did you find this niche? You know, I started the shooting families way back in the day, like 2006 when I graduated from college. I had this plan. I was going to do portrait photography and it was kind of, Just about to explode into this crazy photography business that we have now.

Um, so I started shooting families and was a nanny kind of part time until I could build my business into something full time. And then somewhere along the way, a couple of years in, um, I had a friend who was a photographer slash model. Um, and she was like, just shoot me and see if you like it. And I fell in love.

It was like in my bedroom of my rental house and it was nothing special, but I loved every picture. So I decided to kind of try and offer it to clients. And it was also kind of like a resurgence. A boudoir at the time. I feel like boudoir kind of comes and goes like in the 80s. It was really cool. And then in the 90s, it slowed down.

And then whenever I hit it again, I had found some other photographers who were starting. Um, to try to bring it back. And so I jumped on that train and it blew up from there and it was pretty steady. And I shared my family photography and boudoir. I kept them separate branding wise because I always felt like it needed to be two separate things.

Um, and then over the years I slowly kind of phased families out because I was getting busier with boudoir, which I liked more because I could make more money and people liked the Did what I asked them to do. I didn't have to chase any children around. Yeah. And I think when I had my own kids, I wanted to spend more of that emotional energy on my own family and less on other people's families.

So that kind of adjusted a little bit too. Um, and so then I, for a few years, I did boudoir only probably the last like six years. Um, which I loved while I was really busy. I'm a slow grower, I'm a slow grower. I've never been someone that can be like an overnight success. Like, you know, you see people online that are like, I've been doing this for a year and my calendar's fully booked.

And I'm like, I don't know if I really believe you. I don't think I believe there's so much smoke in mirrors. So much. And you can never believe, even like other people in the industry, I feel like they push my calendar's booked. I'm so full. I'm so busy. And nobody's super honest about it. And if we were all just honest with each other, then we would know about the flow of business more.

It wouldn't be like, well, why is she so busy? And why am I not like we would understand There's a flow to it. It's the imposter syndrome where it creates all these doubts, like, why, exactly, why are they, why do they have it all figured out and I doubt, and we've been doing it for so long. And we literally know nothing about what they're doing.

Yeah. It's, it's ridiculous. But I think over the years I've learned that, like, slow growth is better because I learned so much more that way. And now that I'm in this place, I know what to expect, even if it's a little scary when things slow down. Like, I know that it's going to pick up again and there's a flow to it.

So, like, during COVID. I was crazy busy. I mean, I had five plus shoots a week. Like, it was crazy and I loved it. It was a little bit overwhelming at times, but I loved being that busy because it felt like that's what I always imagined. Success would look like, um, kind of wish I had handled it a little bit differently.

To the two questions, what do you mean by you didn't handle it correctly? And then , what would success look like to you? If you could define it based on what you were talking about, the COVID experience? Um, well, first I'll say that in the beginning, when I started my career, I had this really big idea of what success looked like, and it was, I don't even remember what it was fully, but you know, like I would have a studio that was really busy and I would have employees and I would be well known and I don't know, there were all these ideas that I had.

And then the more successful I got, the more I realized that those aren't things that I really wanted. I don't want all the extra. I like simple. Um, so I guess during those years where I was crazy busy, really, it was just the, like, managing it financially, like, like I should have slowed down and saved for when it got slow.

And instead I was just like, I'm amazing! Like I have, I can buy, I bought furniture for the studio and like, you know, things that, you know. I probably don't necessarily need, but I was feeling really great about it all. So I kept going and now I'm like, okay, well, maybe I should slow down. It's like a flow of busy and then not busy.

And my busy just lasted longer than I was used to. And so I, I got real comfortable there. And, um, I still like right now I'm, I'm slower than I'd like to be, but I'd also, I feel confident that that's going to pick up once I figure out this advertising situation. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?

It's kind of shocking, because as wedding and portrait photographers, we don't have to deal with, uh, being like, blacklisted. Yeah, I thrived with Google Ads for a few years, and it was super easy. I didn't have to spend very much money. Um, and then during COVID, I think, this is just a theory, I don't really know, but I think a lot of the young female wedding photographers in our area, they Started shooting Boudoir because they couldn't shoot weddings And so the market became a little bit more flooded with boudoir photographers I think it went from like ten people in town to like 30 plus people in town.

Whoa, so there's a lot more Photographers in town now that are shooting boudoir which makes it more important to stand out. So I've always been confident that my style is my own and I stand out and I look, my work looks different than what other people are doing. And I have plenty of clients always coming and telling me I was looking on Google and I found your stuff and knew immediately that's what I wanted because it's different.

Um, and so I felt super confident about that. And now I'm at the point where those Google ads aren't getting through anymore and Google will not approve them. And I've spent time on the phone with them going through my website, Trying to figure out what's on there that, and that shouldn't be on there, what I could change, and they're just kind of like, this is it, like, you just have to wait and see if they approve you, and it's very frustrating.

to have your only source of advertising that was working so well for you just all of a sudden goes away and then I struggle the same with Instagram. I never really used it to advertise. I just kind of had it there so that I could show people that I'm working. I'm busy and always whenever I post regularly on Instagram, I tend to book regularly.

There's There's a, there's a combination somewhere. Um, Instagram doesn't show my work to anyone because they flag it as inappropriate and it doesn't matter what it is. I had to go in and archive over 2000 posts because every day I would log into Instagram and there'd be some new random post from three years ago that they were like, this is inappropriate.

And it's like, There's nothing wrong with it. I can appeal the decision, but it always comes back and gets taken down or the next day another one gets taken down. And there's no like rhyme or reason to it. It's just like any random post and that I've said it out loud. I tell you, seriously, you have to say that you have to put it out in the universe.

 It's going to be so like hard, that negative energy, like dealing with that on a consistent basis when you're not doing anything wrong.

No, and I would take breaks from it and just be like, this is worthless. It's unnecessary. But then I'm not booking. So I'm like, I have to do it. I have to figure out a way to make it work. And so then in comes the rebranding where I'm like, all right, I'll rebrand. I've taken boudoir out of my Instagram handle name.

I've taken it out of any words that have anything to do with, like, sexy, confidence, woman, like all the words that you think could flag it, um, and boudoir. And it doesn't seem to make a difference. I mean it will seem to make a difference for a minute and then like two weeks later I log in and it's like, nope, sorry.

That's awful. So is it the original account that you continued to use that that account must be, not to hypothesize because I know nothing about it, but it's something that you pretty much are just never going to break, or it seems like you're never going to break free of this. I think it's stuck. I think there's some little place that it's stuck in some algorithm.

The swirl that I've made up in my head where it can't get out, and I'd love to make a new one, but that just feels daunting. And then what happens when that one starts getting banned? And I've spent all this time building a new following. It's exhausting. That's very, it's very exhausting. So without making you relive every last horrible moment about it, what are you doing now?

Like what is, what is on the horizon? I'm going to try Facebook ads. So I went through this whole process of Trying to learn how to do Facebook's ads myself and I figured out how to do it like I can get in the, it's very difficult, super complicated. And I guess the platform changes all the time because every time I log in, it's different.

It's very frustrating. So after a few months of trying to do it myself, I decided to hire someone. So I've hired someone to do the ads for me, and she is starting this week. Oh, okay. So I got her information from another boudoir photographer who struggles with all the same things I do, and she's had success with it.

So I'm hoping that I can also share in that success with the same photographer. Um, with the same approach. Um, so now how did you come up with, is there a community that you're a part of? There are lots of communities. I'm not really a big community person. Um, she, I think I just follow a bunch of boudoir photographers on Instagram and I had seen on her stories, cause she's very vocal on Instagram, um, that she was complaining about the same issues I was dealing with.

So I messaged her privately and we kind of talk here and there about our frustrations with Instagram and, and it's helpful to have somebody to kind of like bounce things off of, because. I honestly, not a lot of boudoir photographers. I don't know how it is in the wedding industry, but nobody wants to share information or.

Be honest. Which is unfortunate. I think, yeah, exactly. And I think there's a lot of that, like we said a minute ago, like smoke and mirrors, this fake busy, you know, this talk that really, I think if everyone was just more forthcoming with real information, everyone would benefit, including pricing and how much people make and everything else.

Right. And I'm super open. Like I, my pricing is on my website. Like I don't want you to reach out to me and then be disappointed. I want you to see how much it costs and then know that you're going to spend that much and reach out to me. And it feels like that's more honest with clients. And then with boudoir photographers, same thing.

Like if someone asks me questions, sometimes I'm too open and I'm, I'm more of like, I give away too much information, but I'm just super honest. And I don't have that filter that makes me wonder, is she going to use this information against me? I'm just, I want to share, share the wealth. Like everyone, if everyone talked about, openly, like I'd love to be able to reach out to another photographer in Phoenix and say, what does your calendar look like this year?

Is it slower than it was during, you know, 2023? And have them kind of tell me honestly, so that I know if it's just something I'm doing wrong, or if it's just the way things are right now. Exactly. That honesty, that transparency, as you said, like it just benefits you. And I, I think when I see other wedding photographers that I've been friendly with over the years, and then I see they're doing Um, you know, consulting on something with branding or doing this or that, clearly your wedding photography can't be doing that well.

I know. Right when I see a lot of mini sessions, I'm like, they're doing mini sessions, then they're just like me and they're trying to get in clients and that's how it works. But no, it's, it's really interesting. I think over the years I've even avoided trying to have sales because I don't want to look like I need to have sales, which is just ridiculous.

Like nobody's paying attention to that. If they want to book me. Because I'm having a sale, they're going to book me because I'm having a sale. Well, this definitely sounds like it's something more, more challenging than definitely anything that I have to deal with in the photography industry. What insight can you give us all about maybe something you wish you knew earlier than now?

I was thinking about that question earlier and I have so many things that I wish I could tell myself. You did a great job. I knew what you were going to say the whole time. So my face wasn't what you were asking. It was like, how do I answer this? Gosh, it's really hard because I think for me, I, in the beginning, I tried to copy what other people were doing.

I, I tried to just do what everybody else was doing because I thought that's what I was supposed to do. And ultimately throughout my career, I have realized that I have my own style and it took some time to find it. And I feel like copying other people. Or trying to do what they were doing was a, was part of that journey.

I think as an artist, you do look at what other people do. You try to do that. And then you have like, okay, well, this isn't really what I want, but I can add my spin to it. Yeah. Um, so I think that that's what I would probably try to tell myself or other people, you know, like it takes time to find your style and it's okay to use inspiration, but to really try to make it your own.

And I think. Oddly enough, what made me find my style was shooting in the studio that I shared with you and Keith because there was no light and I could not open the window. Nothing like a set of challenges. Right? At the main level of downtown Phoenix. Right next to like a crazy busy parking lot where there were people constantly so we couldn't open the windows.

And there were these big windows along the top and that gave me this gorgeous light from above that I learned how to use. To make what really fulfilled me, which was like these darker, moodier images. When in the past, I always wanted full floor to ceiling windows, bright lights, so I didn't have any, I guess I thought it was easier, but it also looked like what everybody else was shooting.

And so once I was able to kind of find that path, I got, I felt really confident in my own style. Your style is so distinct. I mean, to me, it's just like, wow, you know, and I, obviously I'm not the only one who thinks that clearly you have, you have a following because you're so, as you described, so you have a unique style.

It's a shame Instagram is punishing you for it. I know it's really frustrating, but I feel like I'll find another path. There's a big part of me that wants to just like not have to worry about Instagram at all. But I know personally, when I find a company, And I want to check them out. I go to their Instagram because I want to see what they're currently doing.

And if somebody goes to my Instagram and it just doesn't exist, or it looks like I posted something three years ago, my first thought is they're not in business anymore. And so I can't really let it just sit there, but I also can't really post anything. So it's. Endless struggle. I agree with you.

I wish social media in some ways didn't exist. I don't want to sound like it's, it's benefited, you know, benefits photographers specifically, but of course not if you're being punished, but on the other hand, it takes so much effort. Um, does SEO or are there other ways that people find you, but, but I realize what you're saying, like obviously.

Somebody searches for boudoir, you pop up, but then they want to check you out on Instagram or this Facebook ad or something like that. So the triangle of everyone finding you, right? So my website's been around for a really long time and for years, um, it's femmeartboudoir. com. I was like top of the list for years.

No big deal. Didn't have to do anything. I mean, I had it like set up for SEO, but I didn't really work hard at it. Um, and then probably five years ago was when the kind of big boom of new boudoir photographers came through and then No, I'm not at the top anymore. I have to like work for it, which I think I got so used to not having to work for it that people just found me.

They searched boudoir near me or whatever they searched and I popped up immediately. I saw your gorgeous images. Yeah. It was just like, there I was. Now they have to like search through pages for me, which some people do. And I do truly believe that clients who want the, like who are looking for a certain experience or a certain style, they want to find a photographer that resonates with them.

Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. They will search until they find that photographer, and so that's why it's so important for me to know that I just need to get in front of them. If I could just be in front of them, which is what Google ads do for you, um, they put you right there at the top or wherever, and They're immediately, they'll click on you and at least take a look and decide if they like you or not.

But if I'm not there, I don't know the game is so frustrating that it's, it's hard to know when you're doing all the changes. Yeah. So, I mean, I, my Femme Art Boudoir website is going to still be on Google. I'll still work to get that scene. Um. But this rebel babe, which is a new brand that I'm, I'm building is going to be more for advertising so that Google will approve the ads and Facebook will do ads for it.

And eventually I might combine the two or get rid of one or whatever I end up doing, but I think I needed a fresh, fresh start so that I could not only be inspired, um, to do something new, but also. Um, you know, be approved by the internet gods, which don't approve of me. And it's funny cause I have literally all the same pictures, but because I'm not already, cause even my website is in that weird place where it's just like constantly being flagged.

This new website is not connected to it, so it shouldn't be flagged. And the things that are on it are appropriate for Google, um, according to all the things that I read and the people that I've talked to, um, it shouldn't be flagged. It's, it's. Yeah, I mean who knows people keep telling me it's the election once the elections over everyone will start buying things again And I'm like, that'd be great But I just yeah, it's been two years where it's been kind of slowing down and it could be the market It could be that people aren't really booking shoots right now, and that's fine But then I do get people that book shoots so I know they're out there It's just getting in front of them is and I think that's the hardest part about Being a photographer online is that you have to get in front of people and you can't just like go door to door.

And people are like, why don't you put your pictures up in a lingerie shop? And I'm like, I've done that before. The only way it works is if the person who runs that shop talks about you with all their clients. And I did have someone that did that for me for years in the beginning and she was amazing.

But then she closed her shop. And then I've reached out to the, I mean, there's like one lingerie store. Maybe there's two now in this whole area, which is nuts, but it's not, that's not, my clients don't wear lingerie. They show up and they're like, I've never really worn lingerie, but I bought this stuff because I think I'm supposed to.

And so that's just not where they are. They're not at, they're not at the lingerie stores. And I, I'm sure you get great referrals. That's got to be a big part of your, your, your business too. Yeah. Clients referring you. But. I could probably like 50 percent of my business is probably referrals and the other 50 used to be Google.

But now I'm working on that 50 percent referrals and not Google. So that's probably where the disconnect is. But once I get things up and running, um, I do it like a, a bi weekly newsletter. And when I send things out, I do get responses and there's like a core group of people that shoot with me throughout the year multiple times.

So I feel like that's kind of kept me going. And then I do get referrals from clients. Um, I found over the years though, that they're a little bit slower with boudoir because it's not like you get, you know, like family photos, you get your family photos taken every year. Every year you probably use the same photographer or you try something new or somebody tells you, Oh, we use this person.

But with boudoir, it's gotta be, it's like an internal reason. Like you're doing it for yourself, to feel great. You're doing it for your husband, a birthday, an anniversary. You've always wanted to do it, but now it's 20 years later, you're finally doing it. And it could be because somebody 20 years ago told you they did it and took their pictures And then you're like, Oh, I think I'll try that.

And then you search for your own photographer that resonates with you. And I have plenty of clients that come in who are like, Oh, I have friends that have done this, but they did it with these other photographers. And it was just really different. And so I know that they were inspired by them to do it, but they also searched out a photographer that, that resonated with them.

And so it's just a longer process. So I'll get people who are like, Oh, my friend, you know, Sarah shot with you. And I'm like, Oh, when did she shoot with me? Because I can't remember. Transcribed Who Sarah is and then it's like 2004 and I'm like, Oh, that's, that's too long. 2010 and I'll be like, well, there's no way I'm going to remember her.

Sometimes I'll look up their pictures, but I don't have pictures that go back that far. It's also a very personal thing, too, and I'm sure not everyone, I want to say, quote, admits to it, but like, not everyone's going to be as open where, like you said, you're at the park with your kids. Oh, who do you use as your family photographer?

It's just something that naturally comes up in conversation, and certain niches don't come up as easily, I guess, in conversation. True. And some people want to talk about it and, like, tell the world, and other people would never tell anyone. So it's just very different and I have people who are like, Oh my gosh, all my friends are going to do this now.

I was the, I was the Guinea pig and I'm going to tell them all to do it. And I know that like none of them are going to call me except maybe like five years later, one of them is going to be like, Oh my gosh, my friend did this years ago. And it's because it's a personal choice and your, your reasons for it are different.

It's not, it's not just like, Oh, I'm going to do that next week, you know, for fun. Some people are like that. The words on your site are so beautiful, like as a woman, I mean, I, I read, I resonate with it and I wish, but I should, I should not have let as much time go. I've never done it. I think it's something that I should have done, especially at some, you know, getting closer to 60 and you're like, Oh my God, but it's something so beautiful.

And the way I think that you, you show women is just amazing. Thank you. So I've known you for quite a while now, and I remember you doing these sessions. At the beach. I remember you being in California doing something with beach. Correct me if I'm wrong. I believe your images were in a gallery in California.

Was it like a boudoir shoot? Oh yeah, so the water stuff. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So, like, I had this idea. I always wanted to photograph somebody in the water, but from above the water. Free like years and I was I was kind of scared to do anything different because I didn't really I don't know what I'm doing Turns out you just never know what you're doing.

You make it up all the time, but I found this This woman online and she was like a self portrait artist and I just sent her a random Instagram message And I was like, hey, I've always wanted to do this photo of a woman in the water naked From above the water and I'm wondering if I literally never met her before I'm like I'm wondering if you want to do this with me and she's like sure just tell me where to go You And so she met me at the only pool I had access to was my parents pool.

And so I made my parents leave their house and I had her meet me there. And it was like November. It was freezing cold. And she didn't care. She's like, I'm just doing it. And so she gets in the water and she swims around. And I, I had a special vision and it really just was her sloshing around in the water.

And I am, Either way, she was freezing cold and was like almost in shock when she got out of the water, she was shivering so much, but she, um, she was fantastic and the pictures were amazing. And I love those photos and they were, they felt more like, um, like an art piece to me and less like a boudoir shoot because I feel like for me those are very different things.

Yeah. Um, and then I did a couple more with her like that. She ended up becoming my editor. So now she edits all my photos for me, which is a life changer. That's the advice I would give every photographer is hire an editor, hire an editor. Hell yeah. Hire an editor. Get rid of what you don't love doing. So the editor, I hired the editor and that changed my life.

And she's a private editor, so I feel like I've tried to use the companies before, but they felt very, um, Batchy. So they would just like push all my pictures through and they would all look like they put a filter over them Which is not at all what I wanted, but she um, it's amazing She's basically better than I ever was and has only built on what I would do for my editing and it's the most incredible feeling to just Upload pictures.

I still have to call my own images. Mm-Hmm. . I just can't because you were there. Can't go that part of it. Yeah. I'm sorry. Yeah. I know what I was going for and Yeah. I know that I took 75 pictures of that one thing, but I only want the first one . Right? Right. Exactly. It's to only you, you know . Yeah. So I just sent 'em off and she and sends em right back and it's the most incredible thing's.

Free because I used to spend hours and I see my friends who are still spending hours. I have a friend that's a family photographer and she goes nuts in the fall and wants to quit every year because all she does is spend her entire life editing and I'm constantly like just get an editor because it will, it doesn't have to be exactly perfect.

They will never know the difference because that's what people are afraid of. I think most is letting go of that. And I don't know, once you let go, you, you never want it back ever. I think it's freeing, definitely. And I think it's just one, I'm not saying burden is the wrong word, because obviously we love what we do, but what we have, it just allows you to have, if you wanted, you know, more, more sessions or just more free time to do what you want to do and not be burdened by, like, I think you're talking about your friend, the family photographer as well.

It's like, it gets so wrong. Well, for me, it's like, I also forgot how to edit. Like I used to be so fast and I could click, click, click, click, click and get through my pictures. But now I'm like, how do I do this? I've literally forgotten. And I don't know if it's like purpose, purposeful. My brain is like, you don't want to do this anymore, but I would still, yeah.

She took a year off at one point and was like getting a different job where she had health insurance and she's like, I'm not going to be editing anymore. And I like almost died. And I hired someone else who never ever came close to what I needed. And then she eventually came back and I was just like, please never leave me.

Please never leave me because that was a really hard year. But nobody noticed except me. Like my clients probably always thought their images looked fantastic, but we are our own worst critics for sure and we see things that a client would never see. However, you know, it's wonderful that you're able to have that person have, , share your vision and deliver images that are up to your standards.

Back to your actual question though, as far as the art goes. So I made a bunch of those prints. I love those photos so much and I share them. But for some reason I don't, like when I make artwork, because she did a lot of, um, art modeling for me after that, we worked together a lot, she was kind of, I guess you could call her my muse, I shot her a lot in the studio that I shared with you and Keith, which was really lovely, but I never really did anything with it, I think I'm just sort of scared to put it out there, also it's nudes, so like, I don't know, there's just some weird disconnect where I don't feel Feels personal to me like these are images that I love and so I found I think I just saw some random gallery in Laguna Beach that was like accepting submissions and I thought I might as well just send him my pictures and he was really excited.

He's like send me some prints I think I spent like What at the time seemed like a ridiculous amount of money to send him these beautiful metal prints and then they hung in this Gallery that I literally never went to they just hung in there Shipped there from Miller's and I think it was a couple of years they were there and I sold one piece.

Um, which wasn't even my favorite, which I thought was really interesting. Um, and then the gallery, I guess, went out of business because the owner passed away. And so they sent them back to me and now one hangs in my bathroom. It's just, I had a gallery show once I had this little studio, um, it was my second studio and it was just like a, almost like a small room.

It was really small and I was trying to push myself out of my comfort zone and I wanted to show some of the fine art nudes that I'd created. And so I found, oddly enough, I found this other photographer who had some cool artwork in town, too, and I was like, if I could get her to do it with me, then I won't feel like the attention is all on me, um, or the pressure to, like, have people come see my work.

Like, why would you come see my work? And, um, that was really helpful, actually. It turned out to be helpful because she had a bunch of people that, she had a big Instagram following, so she had a lot of people come see. And my work was there, and I hated every minute of it. I hated talking to people about my artwork.

I felt so, like, probably imposter syndrome, like, why would anybody want to come see this? And people were super nice. And they liked it. And her, actually, the girl that I did the gallery showing with, her dad bought one of my prints because it was her that I took photos of. Which was also kind of interesting because it was like, nude photo of her, but anyway.

It was a lovely piece of art. Um, and I would probably never do that again because it was just like, I don't know. I don't like being, I don't like the attention, not only having to talk to people about it. And so even this is really hard for me. Like my son asked me this morning, he's like, why are you doing an interview?

And I was like, sometimes you have to push yourself out of your comfort zone and try to do something that you know is going to be hard. But when it's over and even your, your message, you were like. If you don't have time today, it's fine. And my first thought was, Oh, definitely don't have time today, but I have literally nothing scheduled, but you go, you almost gave me an out and I was like, don't do it.

Well, I'm very similar. And I, not that this is way out of my, like, I do not like speaking first of all, in front of a microphone to the public, to anything, but it's something that I just feel like I have to do and I want to get people's messages out like yours, because I think there's so many photographers that can't see themselves.

It's like. That just don't realize like you can create a viable business. You can do this. I think it's a roller coaster, like owning a photography business is highs, lows, these and ebbs and flows. Absolutely the resilience of showing up consistently in spite of all the setbacks is I think the one of the things that I like to, I like, I want people to be able to see and other photographers that it's because of the resilience and the fact that in spite of all the problems you're having, you're still showing up every day and you're still gonna, you're still gonna make this work.

But before we get off the art, you're doing something else right now that I saw you post. Yeah, another thing, I was inspired by another artist who's in New York, I don't know her name right off the top of my head, but she, um, she's a figure artist, painter, and she does, like, paints people's bodies, and then they do a print on the paper.

And so I was super inspired by that. I've always wanted to try. I've always wanted to be a painter, um, and I can't paint, try to paint, I try to paint bodies because that's what I'm like, artistically inclined to is, is female bodies. And it just, I can't, I've never tried to learn, like take a lesson, which is probably why I can't, but every time I try, I'm always failure.

So I thought, this is really cool. I can still make art with a female body. That's a painting. Um, so I decided to just kind of like, Put it out there. See what happens. I've done it a few times. Um, I enjoy everything about the actual process of painting the body, doing the press on the paper. Um, I love the way they look afterwards, but it's very messy and I am very simple.

And so I have to get, you know, paper all set up and the paints all set up. And then, I don't know, that feels stressful to me. And then the whole process and experience is amazing. Go With a client and the people I've done it with have been over overjoyed like it helps them with body acceptance And just it's a really cool experience to kind of bring you into your body and it goes beyond what your body looks like and the shape of your body and more to just like how your body feels and Just I also feel like it gives an outlet for someone who might not want naked pictures of themselves But they still want to do something You Either that's like out of the box or just like out of their comfort zone, something fun, something different.

They want an art piece that's them and personal to them in their house. And so it's like a, an avenue for that, where you don't have to get naked in front of a camera, which is a totally different experience. Yeah. Um, so that's kind of where I was going with it. But then afterwards, when you don't have a shower in your studio, it's very, very messy.

And so I'm like literally scrubbing paint off people with washcloths and water in a bucket and it feels very unglamorous. And so I'm kind of not pursuing it. Until I figure that logistics out, um, I'm never going to have a studio with a shower. Like it's just not really a thing unless I rented some kind of apartment, which I'm not going to do.

Right. Um, Yeah, you're right. That would be. Yeah. Doing it in someone's house feels like that would be the best option because then they can just shower immediately. But then I'm bringing paint to someone's house and that makes me super nervous. So I think at this point I've decided what I need is an assistant who comes in and sets everything up for me And then I do the process and then I the assistant cleans it all up.

Like this is where I need in my life Yeah, I can figure out the mess part I can give someone a robe and just be like, you know Go home in this robe and shower when you get there but Still, that part's a little messy. And so I love the whole process. I'm glad that I tried it because a lot of the times I have ideas for years and years and I never try them.

But I'm really glad I tried it because it kind of helped me to kind of see what that experience is like. People love it. I've gotten a great response. People want to try it. So I still want to figure it out, but I think it's, I'm going to let it simmer for a minute. Until they are. Speaking of personal projects, how do you feel that influences the overall business?

Um. I think when I try new and exciting things, I get more, um, interaction from people. So people are more excited. They see the same thing over and over and then they're like, Oh, look at what she's doing. This is kind of exciting. And even if they don't want to do it, they're talking about it. And I feel like that is really helpful as far as getting, getting people more interested in what I'm doing.

Um, I think it makes me more creative. It makes me think about things differently. And it helps me to see beyond just for me, and I don't know if this is day to day business, but like with boudoir, you know, you're taking sexy pictures of bodies all day long and looking at them and editing them and you know, like everything you're doing.

And then so feel like it's important to see past that and to realize about the, this is more about the experience than it is about the end result. And then that I think in turn helps me. I don't know, kind of wrap my head around things because I feel like I've always creatively growing. And even from, from this, it helps me branch out because now I'm in a place where business is slower and I'm like, okay, I should have some other branches, some other things that I'm doing.

Um, so this isn't the only thing I rely on, um, cause that's all I've done for years is this is my business. This is what I rely on. And now that it's a little bit slower, I'm recognizing that I need to bring a couple other avenues. We'll call them side gigs or something so that I feel a little bit more comfortable and so that I can get a little bit more variety.

The original person that inspired me to do this, she's a beautiful painter. She adds things to the body that the print of the body and it looks incredible. I've tried to do this. I can not do this. And then people, the end result is that something framed hanging in their, in their house. Gorgeous, gorgeous art.

Sounds amazing. Yeah. And so I wanted to see based on my inspiration from her. Um, what I could do with it myself, like where I could take it myself. And I was really inspired by these, um, like watercolor images that I've seen of women's bodies. And I thought, how can I, how can I make it go this direction?

So that when I add to them images is more my own creative flow. Um, so I started to experiment kind of just playing with watercolors and now I'm super excited about watercolor painting. It's not connected at all to my boudoir, but I feel like on a some level it definitely is because it teaches me to kind of learn, learn new, a new way to be creative and just sort of, I don't know, I guess I'm trying to be more of an artist.

Yeah. That's wonderful. But it seems like you never, well, even when there were only 10 boudoir photographers in Phoenix and now there's 30, whatever the numbers are, you never seem to blend in with the masses. So I, I, this is my observation that you were always like over, over here versus the masses being over there and doing things like this, I think just further for someone, like you said, who's looking for it, but it seems like it would be just so obvious to the right person that.

Yeah, you're the one that has gotten me through. I mean, that's gotten me confidence to get through the past like 10 years because constantly clients are telling me, you're the only person I wanted to shoot with. Like once I saw your work and some of them would say, you know, you were more expensive than everybody else, but I couldn't go with anybody else because you're the only one that I wanted to work with.

And so. That gave me a huge boost of confidence to, and I think I got too confident because I was like, I'm amazing people love my work. I'm the best. And so, I don't know, like there's a good level of confidence. But I always tell people when they say that to me that my work is amazing. You know, all they wanted is that there's just a lot of different styles of boudoir photography out there.

So many different styles. There are people who will do whatever you want them to do. And there's things where I draw a line and I don't like I don't shoot couples and there are boudoir photographers out there who do gorgeous work with couples and I'm not against couples boudoir photography. It's just not for me and I I have to explain that to people all the time because they're like, well, you shoot boudoir.

Why don't you shoot couples? Why don't you shoot men? And it's such a different experience for me. It's about giving a woman the experience of feeling good about herself and seeing herself in a way that she's never looked at herself before. Because I have women who sit on this couch with me and look at their pictures and they're just like, There's no way that's me.

And it's literally just what they did. Like you laid on the couch and I took a picture and yes, I smoothed your skin, but like, this is what you look like. And it's become such a powerful experience for me because I think I'm such an art, like I'm an artist. I want to make art. I see light, I see lines and shadows and like everything to me all the time.

Um, so for years, that's what I, that's what I loved about boudoir was the lines and the shadows and the. I don't know, the art of it. And then over the past few years, I think since I started doing in person sales, I've realized it's really about helping them see themselves because nobody looks at them.

You don't see yourself that way. And if your husband takes a picture of you, it's not the same picture that I am taking and it's very different. So don't judge yourself by that photo. Please don't. Please don't. And so I think like. And then you take that image, they take that image away with them in their head.

Like, this is what I look like. And like, that's super powerful for me now, now that I'm older and wiser, I think I've been in the past. I used to send people online galleries constantly. Okay. So tell me about the in person sales. I didn't realize that. Yeah. I think once I got. Into the studio that I'm in now, it was 2020 right before COVID.

I made a decision that I was going to do in person sales because mostly because everybody said it's better, you make more money than I thought. Oh, I'll try this out and see how it goes. Um, it does work by the way. It's a hundred percent the right idea. I don't think I could ever go back to doing it online.

Um, not only because it's, I feel like I have bigger sales because I do in person sales, but. It's, it's a feedback that you get and the personal experience with the client to sit and watch her photos with her. Like if I send you a gallery online, you're just going to click through for days and days and days and try to decide what you like and what you don't like and, and yeah, I get hyper critical like zoom in, zoom in.

Yeah. Like it's totally, somebody comes in, I show them a slideshow and I show them all the pictures because I want them to be like overwhelmed with all the pictures. I think in the past I always heard just show them a few like the best ones and I'm like no no they want to see all of them so they can be like how in the world and every single one of them how am I going to choose and I'm like I don't know yeah tough yeah it's hard but I blame you because you look because they do they look so amazing and there's too many photos to choose from and and then that also makes them feel really good because most people are going to say like they come in super nervous to view their images and they say you know I hope I like one I hope I like at least two A couple and then they love all of them and they're just like, well, I didn't expect this.

And so. And then you also hear them say, most of the time, I'd say like 95 percent of my clients love every picture and they don't know what to do with themselves and they can't believe that it's them. Um, there's a few nowadays, I feel like because younger, the younger generation takes so many photos of themselves that it's easier for them to be critical of their pictures because they're like, Nope, I don't like that one.

I don't like, no, I don't like that one. Yeah, and I'm like, Hmm. Wow. You look amazing in all of these. And when you're 50, you're going to want all these pictures, but you do, you do you, it's different for sure. But I also think just as from a, obviously I don't shoot what you do, but when we decide for a client and it's always interesting that they many times like a different image than we do, like what our favorites are not theirs, because I think we see in ourselves different, different things.

So I think. I like that approach, showing more versus less because who is it, you know, if you were showing 10 images and there's 75 that are gorgeous, like why would you limit your opportunity for them and for your sales? I do, I see other photographers who say 200 proofs. I'm like, Whoa, that's way too many proofs.

Like my clients usually see 60 ish pictures. Sometimes it's 80 if I just can't, you know, can't tone it down from that. But like mostly it's around 60 and I feel like that's already too many. So if I was showing you 120 pictures, Also, they're fully edited when my clients see them. So they're not choosing and then saying, and then I want you to change me.

Um, I just edit them to a level where they look like themselves, but. I guess you could say it's like a very smooth version of themselves, but still like a human person with like skin. Um, and there's a line there. Some people want more. Um, but most of the time, everybody loves exactly the way they're edited.

So I've decided to just show edited images because it feels like it takes away from the experience if you don't. Um, and everybody loves that. And sometimes I'll take out, I'll think before I show someone, I'll be watching their slideshow and just double checking everything before they come. And I'll say, Oh, maybe I should take that one out.

And it's purely my own insecurity. Like, Oh, you know, like her stomach looks like maybe it's not flat enough in that shot or whatever. And then I'll choose not to take it out. I've learned over the years not to take them out and they always end up being their favorite pictures and they'll be like, I love that one.

And I'm like taking that, but it's again, the way we're looking at it versus them. So much. Yeah. So much. Yeah. That's really, that's amazing. I'm so excited to hear that you're doing in person sales. So looking down the road, five or 10 years, where do you see your business going? Um, so I have recently decided that I want to make sure that I have something else that I'm doing in the next five to 10 years.

I'm not. I don't want to let go of boudoir. I'd still like to shoot. Um, if I were busy right now, I wouldn't be saying any of these things. I'd be like, I'm going to be doing boudoir. Part of me is like, when I'm 60, do I want to be posing and showing people? Like, I just doesn't, I don't feel like that's where I'm going to want to be when I'm 60.

And I don't know that I want to run a studio where I hire photographers because that feels. I don't know, it feels different to me. It takes away the personal aspect of it. And, and how do I find the right photographer? And so that's like a future option, but I think I'm really like exploring other ideas for businesses that I can do along with boudoir.

And so in five to 10 years, I'd like to be shooting boudoir. Occasionally, unless I find something else that really fulfills me, um, financially and like spiritually, you know, like I want to create things. I'm really rambling on this question. I, cause I'm afraid to say it out loud, I'd love to write. I'd love to be a writer, um, but I feel like I don't even know where to start with that.

And so I'm, I'm in the currently just sort of trying to see. What else I would be interested in doing? And I bought this. So when you say writer, is this something you're actively doing right now or just something that you know that you want to do? I mean a little bit here and there. I have lots of ideas, lots of beginnings, um, lots of outlines.

I've written a book ish about boudoir, like running a boudoir business, really just like the mindset behind it. Nice. But it's just like me writing stuff down when I feel inspired and then not looking at it for months and then all of a sudden becoming inspired by some podcast that I listen to and being like I could totally do this and then You know, it kind of comes and goes, and I tend to ride the creative wave.

So when I'm feeling super creative about something, I go hard and just do and do and do until that creative, creativity kind of fades away. Um, just really when you're able to get your creativity going, I just spoke over you. Is there a way you're able to ignite that? Sometimes when I feel like I'm getting into a slump, I listen, start listening to podcasts, things that I like to listen to stories, um, of people that do really extraordinary, like adventure things like climbing mountains and I don't know, things that I would never do, but there are these people that do these really hard things.

Um, and they commit their lives to doing them and it really inspires me. And so I'll hear, it's not like I seek it out, like I'm like, I'm feeling not really creative. So I'm going to listen to this podcast, but I'll hear a podcast and it sparks something in me where I'm like, all right, I need to start doing, you know, something different.

Um, but I don't know. I feel like it just comes and goes. And over the years, I've learned that I need to ride the wave when it's here. And then when it's not here, it's okay to just kind of chill and not. Not have to be creative all the time, because that's a lot of pressure. Yeah, that can be taxing as well, if you have to be, you know, on.

I also find wild amounts of inspiration from hearing what other people are doing. I think it's really important, because also, not only, they're not talking about what you're going through, but there is this, this, um, I don't know, this great way of seeing things from a different perspective, if nothing else.

Yeah, sometimes I'll be. Sometimes I'll be driving down the road listening to whatever podcast and the person will say just one little random thing and it'll just kind of spark me drifting off in thought about some new idea I have and then like 20 minutes have gone by and I have no idea what they're even talking about anymore but I have this great new idea for a book that I'm probably never gonna write and I'm like making notes at the stoplight and then like You know, a year later, I'll go back and be like, what is this?

But I think that, you know, something will spark. But that's how it all works, right? I mean, you spark an idea which leads to something else. And then, like, five years from now, you're like, oh, that's where that came from. I think the hard part, though, is making the leap to actually try it. Because I Instagram doing those body prints for a long time.

And was super excited and wanted to try it probably for like a year before I actually was like, I can try this. Like, it's not that hard. You just paint someone and have them push on the paper, like, and it, it took me almost a year just to try it. So I feel like the, the jump from being inspired to actually trying the thing that you want to try is where the struggle is.

And you kind of have to push past that or force yourself to do it. I mean, that's what's so inspiring that you're actually doing it, even if it takes a year or five years, whatever amount of time you're, you're, you're, you're actually doing it. And I think that's fantastic into the, um, the fine art nudes.

Like I told you, when I was shooting them, I was crazy inspired all the time, trying to find art models to shoot with. And I was making all these beautiful, I have so many beautiful images that like no one ever even sees because I don't even really know what to do with them. Um, yeah, yeah, I was so inspired to make them.

And then I got to a point where I wasn't really feeling it anymore. And I felt like I didn't really understand that. And now I've come to like a level of acceptance where like I had my, I had my inspiration. I did that creative thing that I wanted to do and I don't have to keep doing the same thing. I need to look for other outlets that inspire me is the same way.

Yeah, exactly. It's like you keep moving forward, but through different channels, like by experimenting with that, that leads to something else, somewhere else, some other day. Have you read, um, The Artist's Way? Oh my god, yes. I'm a big Morning Pages person. I just bought it, and I've started doing Morning Pages, I think, for like a week.

I really like it. I actually was like, this is kind of fun. I think I've secretly always wanted to be a journaler, but I've never had a journal in my life. And so I feel like this is my My, like, you know, my way into that, but I struggle with it because she talks a lot about God and I think that's why I've always avoided it.

But now I'm, I read something, she's like, you just replace God with flow. And so I'm just replacing God with flow and it all makes sense. And I'm like, okay, this is perfect. Exactly. Cause I, I'm similar to you. Like I can't have that. Yeah. I need another word. It just feels different. Right. Exactly. Like that's going to lead me somewhere interesting in the near future.

And I'm excited about. That, and it feels like I'm writing and I really enjoy that, so. If there's a way to get started with writing, at least, I'm jumping in somewhere. That's great. That's an excellent way to get started, especially with that type of writing, where you just like stream of consciousness type writing.

Yeah. Whatever comes and I, right, this is a side note, but as I do it, I always have a post a note on the side because then other ideas. Yeah. Yeah. I'm writing my, my notes. Morning pages. And then I have this other page for all the shit that pops up that I want to get done. I always wonder if I'm supposed to read them.

No, I have volumes. Volumes. Do you? I know full well that a lot of what's happened in my life is based on what I wrote in those. Yeah. So. And no one's judging you. You just get to write. My kids do come in the room and they're like, what are you doing? What are you writing about? My son, my oldest son, he likes to read when I write all the time.

He's always trying to read my stupid text messages or emails. And I'm just like, you guys just leave it. Don't read it. It's full of writing. And that's, that's, that's, as long as you do it when you want to do it, it's like that's your mind will respond, respond to that. But I do think that when, well, especially when it comes to creative businesses, that mindset to me, at least over the years of mentoring many, many photographers over time that I have, I feel like you can lead the horse to water.

But you can't make them drink, but basically you can show somebody your exact business plan and say, this is how to do it, but you can't make somebody do it. So I feel like mindset, um, shifting the mindset in some shape or form, whether that's believing in yourself, finding self confidence, uh, whatever, whatever's holding you back from being able to take that next step.

So is there something that when you look back as we spoke about 15 or so years ago until now and then like five or 10 years down the road, what mindset shift do you think has been most important in your life? Well, I have never really put myself out there. I don't, nobody really even knows what I look like until like the last couple of years because I would put somebody who's like, I thought you were a man.

So I finally put like a photo of myself. Um, I don't get on Instagram and talk. I don't, I'm not really good at, I guess networking is the right word, but like getting out there and meeting people and talking to people. And so for me, I think getting past that, I don't even know what to call it. It's a wall that I put up.

Like I'm not willing to do those things. But if I were willing to do those things, and I actually went out and started talking, because I love people. I love talking to people. I love being around people. So I don't think it's that part that's scary. It's the selling myself part that's scary. So if I could change my mindset to be confident about that and go out and like I joined this woman's group called the Foundry last year, um, just based on like a friend of mine who was part of it and she's like, you should come and we sit at tables and there's a speaker and then everybody chats and I, I hated every.

Idea about that. I was like, there's no way I'm ever going to be interested in that. But there's also a part of me that knows that that's what I need in order to grow. And so if I could, if I could flip my mindset so that I could be excited about doing those things, or at least be willing to get out and try them, um, to realize that not as scary as they seem, I feel like that could really change the trajectory of my business because there's parts of me who were like, well, I can write this whole thing about, you know, how to run your boudoir business.

Um, which seems boring to me, but for me, it's more about like how to run it so that it works for your life and for your expectations. Um, but then I'd have to go talk to people to sell it. And it's the same with writing. If I wrote a book, then I'd have to go talk to people to sell it and I don't want to do any of that.

And so it stops me from doing anything and it stunts my growth in business. And I feel like, I don't even know if this is the question you asked me, but for me, if I could change that part of my life. Myself, that's too afraid to do it exactly. I know I need to do to grow. Then I always want to hire someone else to do it for me.

Like I'd love to just hire someone that did all my marketing for me. And I wouldn't, and I could probably hire someone and make more money, but I don't know, it feels scary. Did I even answer your question? No, you definitely did. And I agree with you a thousand percent. I mean, , putting yourself out there is one of the hardest things to do.

And I don't even know if it's a fear of judgment or whatever it is. I think it's just honestly a very hard thing to do. Yeah. I read so many things about it. I listen to podcasts about it, you know, and I get so inspired and I'm like, yeah, I, and I feel confident on like a regular basis, but I know I've been skating along for the past 15 years on the fact that I stand out.

And when people find me, they like my work, but I've never had to work to get in front of anyone. And I've never had to create relationships with people to get in front of everyone. And I've always known deep down that that's what you really need to do in order to be successful. And so now that I'm at a point where I kind of know that's the jump I have to take, it scares me.

And so I'm like, what else can I do? What else can I do? But the only thing I can think of that I want to do is make art, whether it's writing or painting or anything. And you have to put yourself out there if you want to be successful with that. And so that's, this is where I struggle in life. Well, that is like an absolute perfect piece of advice that you have to put yourself out there because whether it's some, you know, obviously we're not talking about dating, but no one's going to come knocking on your front door.

So if you don't put yourself out there. I can't just sit and wait. Yeah. I got lucky for a long time and now I'm not, now I'm not in the same spot. So. That's another topic for another day, luck favors the prepared and clearly you are an amazing photographer and people love your work and I just think that, um, there's so many great, I cannot wait to check in with you on a regular basis, like as a friend, but also five years from now to see, I want to see what you're writing and I want to see where the photography has evolved to and 

Thank you so, so much Pam for taking this time. Like, Oh my God, I'm absolutely. I'm so appreciative for you being here and getting out of your comfort zone, getting me out of my comfort zone and talking like this. So thank you so much. Where can people find you? Uh, first of all, thank you for having me. And I'm really glad that we got to catch up because it's been a while since we've talked.

Um, but this was really fun and people can find me at, I'm just going to give you my rebel babe studio. com. Um, and that's my new website. So there's so all one word stuff on there. Yeah. Rebel. One word. rebelbabestudio. com. Okay. And we're staying away from Instagram. No, I'm kidding. I mean, so I'm in the process of like possibly changing my Instagram names, but you can use, um, Femme Art Boudoir if you want, and you should be able to find something.

But if I'm banned, you won't be able to find me because But if somebody wanted to see, I looked at your website the other day, so I know that Femme Art Boudoir is still up, right? It is. So Femme Art Boudoir. And there's a link for Instagram on that website too, so it'll take you wherever I am at the moment.

Okay, perfect, perfect, because you'll keep that updated. Thank you again. I really, really appreciate it. And I know everyone's going to love this interview. So thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

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